Carpet, The Mills are killing us

[ronald pantelas]

The carpet that is selling today, or should I say the carpet they are making is cheaper. How can we get market share with new flooring. When they are not coming up with good products. When people are buying carpet, it seems like they are buying it for price. Home Depot runs their special whole house carpeted for this low price. If they pay low for the carpet, why would they pay high to get me to clean it. I would like to see built in microban protection. Or something new to get people to buy carpet again. Ron

 

[B&BGaryC]

I'm surprised that retailers won't tell the customer that the polyester stuff is crap.

 

[renegade_cowboy]

I noticed that years ago and I thought they did that so it would make customers buy carpet, more often. That is my conspiracy theory.

 

[Rex Tyus]

I'm surprised that retailers won't tell the customer that the polyester stuff is crap.

Most retailers are actually ignorant to the maintenance of carpet. All they know is what the mill reps tell them.

We live in a through away society. If it weren't for the price of installation replacement of carpet would be a more frequently chosen option.

 

[steve g]

I'm surprised that retailers won't tell the customer that the polyester stuff is crap.

because they don't know themselves, I sell carpet, well I deal with prosource, I was at the counter waiting and a customer not mine comes to the counter with some samples of glue down carpet for a day care, there happened to be a mill rep there and he came over and said oh those are samples for the mill I rep for, he talked to them for a little bit about the carpet, I finally spoke up and said please do yourself a favor and look for that same carpet in a nylon instead of the olefin junk that stuff was, the rep proceeded to get into an argument with me about how superior olefin carpet was and how it was the only carpet that could be steam cleaned. I left wanting to choke the guy

 

[Farenheit251]

I talked to a couple of retailers and asked why I was seeing almost every carpet bid I've seen lately the stores are pushing polyester. There answer was that nylon has gotten too much more expensive than polyester and they have to bid polyester to make the sale.
We are going to be cleaning lots of polyester in the future. It is going to be harder to impress customers with how the carpet looks after cleaning.

 

[Able 1]

I noticed that years ago and I thought they did that so it would make customers buy carpet, more often. That is my conspiracy theory.

I believe this also... While cleaning the 30 year old carpet that cleans like it dose, can you blame them?

 

[floorguy]

DUH







DUHHH







DUHHHH




Its only taken you guys this long to figure this out????? And I mean on all the questions...

hence is why i asked a question a few years back, when someone boasted about there $.75 a sqft charge

Why in the hell would i pay you that much to clean my carpet, when in 2 or 3 years i can put brand new in for the same cost???? (based on a every 6 mth cleaning)

 

[B&BGaryC]

In another ten years nobody will be installing Polyester. I see the horror, anger and shock in the faces of my customers when I try to gently break the news to them that their 1 year old carpet is already in their eyes "worn out". I explain what wear is, and let them know that what they are seeing is texture change and it's permanent. I would much rather clean a stinky 30 year old nylon than a 1 or 2 year old poly.

 

[floorguy]

ahhh yes, but i am talking about the avg joe...

you have multipule trains of thought here...

The replace it every so often people

The never get my shit cleaned anyway people

The try to stretch that mutha out as long as they can...

The pay what i need to, in order to get the best i can

etc. etc.


so as always...charge what you can...clean it as often as you can, and just do what you can..

 

[Guest]

How is that every carpet cleaner knows how to install better than the installers
and knows more than the sales man and knows how to design better than the mills???

I dont know of not one cleaner that has his own mill, retail store , installtion company!!

 

[B&BGaryC]

I'm sorry, I missed that, I was yelling at the television because the quarterback made a bad play.

Seriously though. The carpet that has been getting installed is junk. It doesn't take a genius to figure this out. If they want to sell crap and then tell the customer that getting it cleaned ruins it, then they are stupid or un-ethical, either way they deserve no respect and we do not have to walk a mile in their shoes to figure that out.

 

[steve g]

How is that every carpet cleaner knows how to install better than the installers
and knows more than the sales man and knows how to design better than the mills???

I dont know of not one cleaner that has his own mill, retail store , installtion company!!

so are you saying we are wrong, and this mills are right about pushing polyester?? they are just killing themselves and furthering their problems, people are dissatisfied with carpets long term appearance, so they have been flocking to other surfaces for years, I guess polyester is supposed to stop that AAAA??? The mills should have done a better job of eduction, and setting of real standards that help people be satisfied with their products

 

[Guest]

First of all polyster is half of what nylon is, price wise and wearabilty!!

Some can afford a BMW! This will be a nylon customer
And some can afford only a Ford Focus!! and this is a polyster customer

No pun intended!

 

[TimP]

I have talked with the reps about this situation. And I can completely understand why the market is doing what it is. First thing is nylon prices have gone up and is heavily related to petrolium but other limited resources. Nylon should be coming down now that oil has come down.....but I have yet to see or hear of this happening. Anyways polyester is cheaper to produce as far as materials. The mills have been investing in ways to make polyester better, they are making it in continuous filament and better weaving, twisting, and extrusion methods to help extend the life of polyester. Now the reason for the increased effort to make polyester better is because a hole in pricing has been created because of the increase of nylon. To fill the gap they are making this new polyester on "steroids".

The reps swear the stuff lasts as long as nylon. And I told the reps maybe in 10 years after we see the stuff lasting longer we'll believe you and also that it's harder to clean than nylon. They don't believe me in the cleanability aspect. The problem is that they sell the stuff on the idea that it's harder to stain but that has nothing to do with cleanability of a fiber. Which they don't understand.

Anyways as a carpet dealer it's hard to educate the customer because they have 5-10 stores telling the customer what they want. I'd call them the hacks of carpet dealers. And as you guys know there are far more hacks out there than people who strive to be the best at what they do. If you don't sell them the stuff then the guy down the road is going to do it. And after the "hack" salesman has sold them on the stuff there is very little you can do to change their mind because they think you are just trying to get more money out of them. In addition the price they are willing to pay is all they can afford. Also sticker shock because they don't realise that there have been more price increase in carpet in the past 6 years than I can count on my hands and possibly my feet.

The sad truth is also that hard surfaces are becoming more equal in price to carpet. And it may become the minority and more luxurious (for rich people) floor to buy in the far distant future.

 

[floorguy]

ok excuse my ignorance here, but answer me this

nylon = natural content (mostly anyway)

Poly = man made petroleum products


Or did i miss the science class that poly is a natural product??

 

[steve g]

polyester will always suck in carpet, the problem is not so much the clean ability of the fiber itself its how it responds to wear, polyester fibers crush over one way when it does this it traps dirt on one side of the fiber, all the heat and vacuum cannot lift the carpet to fluff and at the same time suck this stuff out. this is the biggest reason why it looks so shitty after we clean it, it just will not fluff up. it is more stain resistant than nylon but big deal when the whole carpet looks so bad, it also attracts oils. I hate the stuff. I would say half the carpet that is within 5 years hold I clean is polyester which is sad. I will not sell it unless the customer knows what they are buying, meaning I personally tell them, and they are only buying it to sell a house

 

[B&BGaryC]

First of all polyster is half of what nylon is, price wise and wearabilty!!

Some can afford a BMW! This will be a nylon customer
And some can afford only a Ford Focus!! and this is a polyster customer

No pun intended!

That would only be true if the paint started falling off of the Ford Focus after you've driven it for a year and the car dealer says, "A ha! That's not wear because the car still starts."

 

[floorguy]

ok excuse my ignorance here, but answer me this

nylon = natural content (mostly anyway)

Poly = man made petroleum products


Or did i miss the science class that poly is a natural product??

Nylon is a polymer, made by several chemical reactions, with carbon and acids, and nylon salt. Its a synthetic.

Most polypropelenes are made from patroleum and oils. Excellent at repeling water based stains, but the oils tend to attract soil. You normally see them berber type carpets. The soil bonds to the oils and to get it clean you have to try to break up the oils to release the soil.

ok so i go back to my question???

so why then is nylon more expensive, when it appears the poly carpet takes more petroleum???

 

[Willy P]

How is that every carpet cleaner knows how to install better than the installers - Look at the seams for a start- Most installers don't know a row finder from a row boat. The majority kick the carpet in instead of power stretching.Tack strip improperly installed, top metals instead of T cap. I do know better than that, but I was an installer.

and knows more than the sales man.
How many salesman have any experience or get to see what happens down the road? Generally- NOTHING.NONE. I've influenced some of my customers away from pop bottle , polyester and olefin garbage and the ones that didn't learned the hard way.




and knows how to design better than the mills???
I really hope that was an intentional joke. Have you seen some of the garbage they've been peddling? I wouldn't wipe my a$$ with some of it, let alone stick it on my floor.

I dont know of not one cleaner that has his own mill, retail store , installation company!!

Mills are generally beyond the financial reach of most cleaners, there are more than a few who flog a bit of flooring as a side line and quite a number who have installation experience.

I hope that was a devil's advocate post.

 

[Rex Tyus]

How is that every carpet cleaner knows how to install better than the installers
and knows more than the sales man and knows how to design better than the mills???

I dont know of not one cleaner that has his own mill, retail store , installtion company!!

I personaly never claim to know how to install better than an actual installer. I can however recognize when a job has been done really shitty.

YES. I abso-Fn-lutely think I know more than the salesman. They are in sales. Period. That is the extint of their knowledge. Don't believe it? quiz one on something you know the answer to. They either don't know or are often willing to lie to make a sale.

As for knowing more than the mills, I personally don't think I do. That is what is even worse they know how to do it right and choose to do it cheap and lie about the quality of what they are selling. Cheap ass carpet is killing the industry. The typical consumer has no idea there are even different fiber types. Let alone the properties of each. SOOO they pick the cheap stuff thinking "price is all just in the name". Then when the dumb ass installer tells them "don't have your carpets cleaned it will remove the protection, JUST USE WD-40 to clean spots" They rip that shit out in a year and put down laminate with a do it your self book from lowes after it starts to look bad and the WD-40 has delaminated half the yardage in the room.

 

[Ken Snow]

Customer demand drives it folks. The mills make all levels of carpet and at least 7-8 different fiber contents. It is all about creating choice for the consumer. We sell broadloom in 2 of our 4 rug showrooms and almost 40% of what we sell is wool, over 50% nylon, and then the rest is plant fibers and a little poly. Our retail clientel tends to be a little higher incomed consumer for the most part and they do not buy poly.

Ken

 

[Rex Tyus]

Ken, I competely agree with you. I do however feel that it is only responsible for the retailer to give honest information about the products they are selling in order for the consumer to make an informed decision. Sadly, too many reatailers don't bother to learn about the limitations of the products they sell in my opinion.

 

[Ken Snow]

That has been the story of some salespeople since the beginning of time and covers just about all consumer products, and many bus to bus ones. Those type of salespeople tend to be on the bottom feeding fringe of the sales world, barely making a living. The good ones, that know it is best to educate and properly inform a client are the most successful and prosperous, whether selling high en or lower end products and services.

Caveat Empter!

 

[Mikey P]

I consider myself very luck that the four or so retailers that refer me all push Nylon real hard.

 

[B&BGaryC]

I consider myself very luck that the four or so retailers that refer me all push Nylon real hard.

If they pushed Poly they would tell them that cleaning it makes it wear out faster so you wouldn't be there to tell them the salesman sold them junk.

 

[WISE]

To put it simply:

The customer does not know what to ask other than price.

When you have Lowes and HD selling a large percentage of flooring you also have sales reps that have basically no product knowledge.

So when you have two samples side by side...one is nylon, one is poly. Look the same, but one is considerably cheaper....

and the uninformed sale is made.

WISE

 

[Rex Tyus]

To put it simply:

The customer does not know what to ask other than price.

When you have Lowes and HD selling a large percentage of flooring you also have sales reps that have basically no product knowledge.

So when you have two samples side by side...one is nylon, one is poly. Look the same, but one is considerably cheaper....

and the uninformed sale is made.

WISE

Exactly!

 

[Don M]

I sell install and clean carpet. When a customer comes in the door for carpet the first question is price. I explain all the fiber types , pros and cons of each carpet. 75% chose a pet polyester because of price.I could talk till i am blue in face but price is the point. If i do not sell them the poly they will go someplace and buy it.

 

[billyeadon]

I think Ken hit the nail on the head. The mills make all levels of carpet. Poor salesmen sell poor products. Poor carpet cleaning salespeople also sell low price cleaning. There isn't much difference.

We have so much incorrect info about carpet from retailers and cleaners that I am not surprised the consumer is confused.

If you are worried about losing sales due to the influx of hard surface learn how to maintain hard surface.