are you setting air srubbers on every job??

[steve g]

I am just wondering if you guys are setting these on all jobs.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Only on those where there is some exposure to the occupant or liability for ourselves.

I read guys on ICS that say the do on every job. I wish we could, but adjusters in this area don't see the value in it even after it's explained.

Bottom line is you're doing it at the cost of a HEPA replacement filter, because they won't pay it.

 

[Curtis Pennington]

Only on those where there is some exposure to the occupant or liability for ourselves.

I read guys on ICS that say the do on every job. I wish we could, but adjusters in this area don't see the value in it even after it's explained.

Bottom line is you're doing it at the cost of a HEPA replacement filter, because they won't pay it.

Ditto that!

 

[steve g]

I think if you have to open up any exterior insulated walls an air scrubber should be set, because we really don't know what is inside those walls, I would say half the time when I pull exterior base I find evidence of previous water damage.

 

[Craig Lindquist]

Anytime walls are opened or if we see a small sectin of mold, we'll deal with the mold, have a waiver signed for pre-existing conditions, and place a HEPA.

Also, our decision is based strongly on our health questionaire that the custome fills out. If there are any people with health problems especially respiratory or immune issues we place one regardless if we get paid for it.

That being said, we always document why we made our decision and have never had payment for a HEPA denied.

 

[John Olson]

Steve when you get signed up for the WRT with Barry you will leave here with the Ammuniton to get paid for the air scrubbers every time.

Steve G call me and I will have you call Russell with Sunshine and Don with AAA restoration to get copies of their letters and the S500 standards that state you must set Air Scrubbers so you can get paid. Once you submit the right documentation you WILL get paid. The adjusters know what the S500 states and unless YOU know what it states they will not pay you for it.

This is another thing that sets barry apart. He makes sure that you understand all the changes to the S500 that not only helps you do a better job but also gets you paid.

Any job you set an airmover you need to set an air scrubber and yes you will get paid as long as you KNOW your right and can proive it and don't flinch.

Any questions call me

 

[Desk Jockey]

Steve when you get signed up for the WRT with Barry you will leave here with the Ammuniton to get paid for the air scrubbers every time.

I think that might be too strong a statement, ammunition or not I don't think you're including adjusters in our service area.

Actually I've seen adjusters from the same company react differently to our bills. One will pay and thank us, the other complain about every nickle.


I'm sure the course is well worth attending and I'd recommend attending, but I'd have serious doubts that I can get paid on every loss.

But John if you'll guarantee it, save me a seat! :wink:

 

[John Olson]

The adjuster can try to adjust what they want. The standards are the standards and they cannot adjust away the standards. They can refuse to pay you and put the home owner in court (since it is the home owner that owes you not the insuarance company) and the home owner will lose and have to pay you since you followed the standards of care your company has pledge and are REQUIRED to follow. So yes I can guarantee you will be owed for following the standards, how and if you collect will depend on you not backing down.

So you wanna pay with a check or credit card for the class? I'll have Angela call you shortly to help you with your flight and hotel

 

[Desk Jockey]

John
I agree the standards are the standards and they can work both for you and against you.

In this case if you don't put an air scrubber (mostly likely at your cost) then you are obviously working out side the standards.

I don't think it would be a good decision to take my customers to court over air scrubber use.

Win or lose, I'm afraid I'd lose in the end.

In a community the size we operate in, it wouldn't take long before you'd get a bad reputation for suing people.

OK, so you were right, but not exactly helpful.

Tell you what I'll send you a check, but don't ever cash it....it's a hot one! :mrgreen:

 

[John Olson]

Come on now Richard you know I wasn't saying to go suing anyone. No adjuster in their right mind would let that happen but you must be willing to go to the wall with the adjuster.

If you want I will get a copy of the letter the two companies I referenced above use to get paid for EVERY job and yes they put a scrubber on every job. If you use it and get paid then you can send Russell (the guy who wrote it up) a big fat check and buy Angela and the guys in the shop dinner at Ruth's Chris Deal?

 

[Desk Jockey]

Seriously you can push, you can try to intimidate but when you are up against a brick wall it doesn't mean a thing.

These guys have it figured out, the decision maker is now insulated. You're talking to the appraiser on site and the adjuster is now a phone adjuster, who's boss doesn't give a rats about air scrubbers and standards.

I can talk about standards and the IICRC till I'm blue in the face, they don't know and don't care about them.

Standards are important to us as restorers and to homeowners, insurance companies....very few care. They are all about saving money on claims, not doing the right thing.

Keep the letters, send me the adjusters!

 

[steve g]

john, I think it would be helpful to post a letter, in regards to what richard is saying, don over at AAA is not on any vendor programs nor does he really care about getting work from the insurance company, so in that regard if the adjuster ends up pissed off at the end of the day so be it, some run their companies differently especially if they depend on insurance referrals. I don't know the guy over at sunshine, in reality the insurance has to pay, I had a guy from allstate f me a while back, he talked the customer into using his people after I had my guy already scheduled and even went so far as to drive out to the job only 2 be told the insurance guy found someone else, i was about ready to blow a gasket because I was gonna loose a few k in repair work. this happened to be in an area I don't normally work so...........I hadn't wrote up my emergency service bill yet, I must have spent an extra hour in xactimate charging for every possible thing I could think of, anyways he got the bill, waited a month all the while not answering the phones and finally sent me back a check with my breakdown edited, I went and leined the house and sued the customer in small claims, we got paid, however I made a mistake in doing this, but at the time I was so damn pissed about loosing money to their politics, I can't tell you how many times I would be driving out to a job and have the customer call while I had loaded up everything and was on my way that the insurance company was making them use their people and they had to cancel, allstate was the worst one about this, so I had revenge in mind, after this happened I learned what comes around goes around and I just so happened to draw that very same allstate adjuster on the next loss I handled for allstate.

 

[John Olson]

We are talking standards,air scrubbers and getting paid. If you believe you shouldn't get paid for them then you won't.

If you believe the standard and follow the standard you will not only be doing the right thing but you will get paid for it. It doesn't have to be that hard. There are all kinds of possible scenarios and the adjusters in your area might just be the boogey man you've made them up to be but for the most part people are honest and honest people cannot look at the truth (the standards) and deny them



"How do you know an honest man? He is the one that is doing whats right even when no one is looking."

 

[Jack May]

... our decision is based strongly on our health questionaire that the custome fills out. If there are any people with health problems especially respiratory or immune issues we place one regardless if we get paid for it.

That being said, we always document why we made our decision and have never had payment for a HEPA denied.

I like that!! Put's the onus on the HEALTH of the true client...

Care to email me a copy Craig?

John

 

[Craig Lindquist]

I actually downloaded it from Dri-Eaz's website.

 

[Desk Jockey]

John
I've tried to hold back but you don't seem to back off this line of BS.

You can't bully your way into getting paid, you can't say it's an attitude and if you don't get paid it's because you're not trying hard enough. That's a bunch of shit!

For your two guys that are getting paid, that's great, but for everyone that you say is, I could give you dozens that are not.

I'd say it's time to get back in the field and see how successful you are at what you preach.

We deal with adjusters daily and contrary to what your preaching, boogy man or not it's not as simple as you like us to think. They are not dishonest, but they have there hands tied.

I don't enjoy that they won't pay for air scrubbers, but it's a fact in my market!

 

[steve g]

John
I've tried to hold back but you don't seem to back off this line of BS.

You can't bully your way into getting paid, you can't say it's an attitude and if you don't get paid it's because you're not trying hard enough. That's a bunch of shit!

For your two guys that are getting paid, that's great, but for everyone that you say is, I could give you dozens that are not.

I'd say it's time to get back in the field and see how successful you are at what you preach.

We deal with adjusters daily and contrary to what your preaching, boogy man or not it's not as simple as you like us to think. They are not dishonest, but they have there hands tied.

I don't enjoy that they won't pay for air scrubbers, but it's a fact in my market!

if they don't wanna pay for air scrubbers then likely they are not wanting to pay for other stuff, I wonder if it would be possible to use that as leverage to keep them from expecting other concessions. give them the air scrubber for free if they whine about other stuff, just say hey man you got the air scrubber for free already.
richard is right, if he takes too hard a line on the air scrubbers, they aren't going to refer him any more. Don and the guy from sunshine, don't give a damn and why should they, they get their jobs from other than the insurance company. I go back and forth on this myself, normally I am pretty hard line when it comes to my charges, but that can haunt you one day.

 

[John Olson]

grrrrr I had a realy long reply and hit the wrong %&%@&^ Key.
I am not trying to argue with you Richard. No reason to. I am trying to help.

Steve and richard only named a couplethat I thought steve would know. Steve Servicemaster is getting paid on every job for scrubbers, every person who has gone through Barrys class this last time is getting paid for air scrubbers. We have 2 guys from exactimate coming back for the 3rd time for Barrys class in Septemeber so they can get a better understanding of the new S500.

I guess what i am trying to say is if you follow the standard and document the standard and they refuse to pay thats on them. if you take it off the bill or worse yet don't even set them then if anything happens it is YOU that didn't follow the standards (or if you did can't prove) and that leaves you open to doubt on everything else if you end up in court.


Again I have no dog in the fight other then watching out for my friends your level of risk exposure is your choice..

 

[Desk Jockey]

John
We work hard at developing long term relationships with adjusters, so to use old school bullying tactics would just damage those relationships we have worked so hard to build.

We try to educated those adjusters that will listen and work with and sometimes around those that won't.

But even saying that, today's adjuster is in a precarious position, she or he has to answers to a claims manager who is constantly on her or him to keep their claims down.

The have the insured who often sees the sky as the limit because their uncle or a neighbor had a loss and he made a pocket full of money off of it.

And then there is us the restorer who as an industry lacks any real consistency in billing. Charges vary from cost to cost as well as billing categories. Some one says I charge for this and I get paid for it, just leads to another to adding it to their invoicing.

The adjuster has a difficult job and the last thing I want to do is complicate it more. If they tell me they can't pay me and explain that it's out of their control, I'm going to believe them for the most part. We've pursued this fight before and when it reaches the next level it's more often refused.

I've re-read my statements and I don't want it to sound like I'm against using Air Scrubbers on WDR work, I'm not. We use them as I stated in my first post.

We have 15-Air Scrubbers and use them often for fire losses, post construction cleanup or mold remediation work. General they we are paid for their usage in these applications. But put it on a WDR and it's a battle for payment, one we usually lose.

John I hate to call you out, but when you make ridiculous statements that new impressionable people entering the market will read, and possibly act on, I don't believe it's helping them.

The cool thing about mikesyboard is the edit feature, unlike ICS or other boards, you can always go back and delete or edit your posts. I would suggest rereading your posts, separating the sales motivation in them and then consider using the edit feature.
For a guy with no dog in the fight you sure had a lot to say. :mrgreen:

"You will get paid on every job"

"you will get paid as long as you KNOW your right and can proive it and don't flinch."

"So yes I can guarantee you will be owed for following the standards, how and if you collect will depend on you not backing down."

"They can refuse to pay you and put the home owner in court (since it is the home owner that owes you not the insuarance company) and the home owner will lose and have to pay you since you followed the standards of care your company has pledge and are REQUIRED to follow."

"If you smell like a pussy and act like a pussy you get f-d like a pussy "

"It doesn't have to be that hard. There are all kinds of possible scenarios and the adjusters in your area might just be the boogey man you've made them up to be but for the most part people are honest and honest people cannot look at the truth (the standards) and deny them"

 

[John Olson]

John I hate to call you out, but when you make ridiculous statements that new impressionable people entering the market will read, and possibly act on, I don't believe it's helping them.

Ok Richard if we are going to call each other out lets get to it. Telling new people they can't get paid for following the standard is not only wrong but borderline criminal. Someone in your position saying you can't get paid following the standards sets precendance that it is OK not to follow the standard because Chavez doesn't. That Sir is WRONG.

The New standard is just that NEW and if you choose not to follow it then you are telling your adjusters you don't agree with the standard. It is those restorers that think they get to pick and choose which standards to follow that are the problem.We as an industry do not get to choose what standrads we will follow and what we will not. It is our DUTY to follow them.

For a guy with no dog in the fight you sure had a lot to say.

Ok maybe that wasn't the right terminology. Yes I have a Dog in this fight but not what your assuming. I CARE about my friends and I CARE about this industry and I cannot sit back when you make ridiculous statements that new impressionable people entering the market will read, and possibly act on, I don't believe it's helping them

 

[Desk Jockey]

"Borderline criminal"?
Easssy there Frances, it's only a BB board!

I have only stated my personal experience, I never said they they should not follow the standard, I said we personally get denied payment.

I would encourage others to use them, bill for it and hopefully have better result than we have.

Someone in your position saying you can't get paid following the standards sets precendance that it is OK not to follow the standard because Chavez doesn't.

My position as a moderator for mikeysboard?
That's the position I have.

The issue I have are with your blanket statements like "Steve when you get signed up for the WRT with Barry you will leave here with the Ammuniton to get paid for the air scrubbers every time."

As far the Standards, I'd suggest to everyone follow them as best you can, but when what's in the field conflicts with what in the book, you'll have a business decision to make for yourself.

 

[John Olson]

My position as a moderator for mikeysboard?
That's the position I have.

Richard you smarter then that. I watch what you read because you KNOW this industry. I Trust your opinions (while I don't agree on this particular issue). Your comments carry alot of weight. You may not have asked for it (well yeah you did the minute you started posting on the internet and again when you became a moderator) your words and opinions carry alot of weight.

it's only a BB board!

It isn't just a BB even if we would like it to be it isn't.

As far the Standards, I'd suggest to everyone follow them as best you can, but when what's in the field conflicts with what in the book, you'll have a business decision to make for yourself.

I guess thats where we differ. I do not have that Luxury. There is no Grey area here for me.They either follow the standard or they do not do the Job. That is the ONLY opinion I am afforded because I have a moral and legal obligation to my friends, customers, employees and our buisness.

 

[Desk Jockey]

I think you've mentioned my weight 3-times....you're starting to sound like Luddy! :wink:

Seriously I know it's rubbing you the wrong way and I don't mean anything personal buy it.

BUT I always take issue with it when a manufacturer or in this case distributor proceeds to preach gospel about how it is in the trenches.

Maybe you've been here in the trenches? I don't know, but I can only tell you what we've experienced.

It's only a BB to me, at least for as long as Mike will have me anyway.

I guess thats where we differ. I do not have that Luxury. There is no Grey area here for me.They either follow the standard or they do not do the Job. That is the ONLY opinion I am afforded because I have a moral and legal obligation to my friends, customers, employees and our buisness.

I don't think it is a luxury, it is a burden, and a heavy one.

In the field it is all gray!
The Standard is but a book and there is a lot of room for interpretation by those in the field.

You're constantly pulled by the homeowner, property manager and insurance professional into gray areas.

That's just a fact of life in the field.

If you only adhere to the Standards you'll do a lot less work and leave a lot of people in the lurch.

Most of those who's property you are working on are glad to hear our industry has standards. Right up until it causes a conflict with what needs to be done or how it's going to be paid. Then it's business decision time.

Gray areas-Can you salvage a sewage damaged carpet for a customer you have been cleaning for for the past 20-years?

How about when it's 2-ft along the edge of a 500 sq/ft family room?

Gray areas are a part of this business you telling me there are no gray areas only tells me you have little experience in WDR.

The Standards....it's a book, not the bible.

 

[John Olson]

Gray areas are a part of this business you telling me there are no gray areas only tells me you have little experience in WDR.

sigh..Chavez you are SMARTER then that. I did not say there are no Grey Areas. I said I am not afforded that Luxury.

Gray areas-Can you salvage a sewage damaged carpet for a customer you have been cleaning for for the past 20-years? NO

How about when it's 2-ft along the edge of a 500 sq/ft family room? NO

The answer better be the same from you and from the adjuster. If you say yes and just by chance they or their children or grandchildren or dog get sick or heaven forbid DIE it is on you and you alone PERIOD. So faced with that fact there is no grey area for me to answer anything then what the standards say. I cannot give any other answer while sitting where I sit as I am the Professional and I AM SUPPOSSED to know whats right.

BUT I always take issue with it when a manufacturer or in this case distributor proceeds to preach gospel about how it is in the trenches.

Not Preaching and definatly not gospel just the standards and if you follow the standards you have a right to be paid for it and you should get paid and you will get paid for it.

It's only a BB to me, at least for as long as Mike will have me anyway.

The Standards....it's a book, not the bible.

Ok next person who ends up in court try that line on the Judge and Jury and report back how it turns out.. LOL

I really really think you are smarter then that Chavez, I really do. Maybe i'm wrong but this is just a debate for the sake of debate right?

 

[Desk Jockey]

As I said in the last post it’s NOT a luxury.

It a BURDEN, a dilemma.

You’re going to replace 500 sq/ft of carpet because 24ft of it has been affected by msewage? On the edge?

Homeowners, their kids and pets don’t spend much time on the edge of their carpet.

You can’t replace the pad, rinse both sides with an EPA disinfectant? Or clean it a second or third time and reinstall it and it be good?

What if there is no adjuster and they have a $1,000.00 deductible? (I feel you hedging!!!)

Your long time customer will be someone else’s when you tell her she has to replace it all because a little fecal stew kissed it.

I think that boggyman might just be the IICRC police?
And you're afraid he will come get you if you don’t follow the Standards.

She won’t understand why you can't save it, you cleaned up fido’s poope when he took a dump last year.
You also cleaned the cushion on her $1800.00 divan last month when great grandma Ethel had difficulty reaching the restroom.

She’s willing to sign a Non compliance, Hold Harmless agreement, just save her from spending $6000.00 on carpet replacement. She will cut you a check for $800.00 to clean and apply disinfectant to 24 sq/ft.

Sick or die, really? After you’ve professionally handled 24sq/ft?

“I cannot give any other answer while sitting where I sit as I am the Professional and I AM SUPPOSED to know what’s right.”

I’d say get use to sitting because not only will she not call you again but she is going to tell everyone she knows not to use you since you let her down in her hour of need.

Who other than yourself says if you follow the Standards you have a right to be paid?

As I’ve told you most people don’t even know who the IICRC is, let alone a Standard.

In our own industry, what is the statistic of those that are certified firms? 10%? (I actually don’t know?) If so, 90% of your own industry doesn’t even know there is a Standard or what it contains.

??????????

Actually I think they are still using the bible to swear you in…..or is it the new Standard? :shock:

Smarter, maybe, maybe not?
but I’m at least smart enough to know that following the Standard is going to lead you gray areas whether you like it or not! :|

 

[packfancjh]

I really don't want to get in the middle of this because I have a deep respect for both of you but as a distributor the only way you can teach someone about WDR is by the standard because if you give them wrong info or tell them it's just a book and you don't need to follow it then you took some of the risk on yourself by misinforming the customer on proper policies. While I do believe there are a lot of decisions to be made by the restoration companies using thier own discretion we cannot see the situation so we need to tell them to follow the S500 so everyone's butts are covered.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Chris their is no middle, I think we are just voicing our opinions.
I don't get hurt feelings and I hope I haven't hurt John's. (even though he is wrong )

But some comments do strike a cord in me, I don't get mad about it, but I will voice my opinion.

I don't like the "you do what Brian Luddy is doing and you'll get paid just like he did."

Well, maybe Brian is working for Chubb or Cincinnati Insurance and there insured pay large premiums, so they pay the claim no questions asked.

Me, I'm working with an independent and he is trying to cut every dime off my bill to justify to the insurance company that hired him, why they hired him.

He denies my Air Scrubber, is it because I didn't say the magic word or didn't send copies of Brian Luddy's letters stating that he got paid by his insurance company. Or photo copy the standards is that legal? or will the IICRC police come get me too?

There are no guarantees and it's not all black and white (says the brown man!)! :wink:

 

[packfancjh]

Oh, I forgot to tell you. Sorry the Bears had no shot at Favre. Sounds like Tampa for the little cry baby.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Now that pisses me off! :x

 

[John Olson]

well Chris got it! What you choose to do is up to you what I will tell you is follow the standard. You will never catch me saying or writing it is ok not to period. I really thought you'd get that. It is also aery BAD IDEA for the moderator of this forum advocating as much. While somethings such as you posted might be doable by some of us. The first time someone try's it because you said it was ok are you going to take care of them and their family when it goes to hell in a hand basket? That's what I have to worry about everytime I give advice. I only have the Standards as my opinions haven't been ANSI certified and soon to be ISO.