The Great SOA Debate w/ Harv and John Downy.
- Thread starter Mikey P
- Start date
hogjowl
Idiot™
Before I open that, tell me. Is it real long?
And is Harry talking down to everybody on it ... as usual?
And is Harry talking down to everybody on it ... as usual?
diamond brian
Member
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It's that long.
Although he stopped short of calling 'em all crooks, Tony did a great job summarizing the SOA's flaws.
I particularly like the part about bronze medal porty's being required to remove just 2% more soil than dry-vaccuming.
Although he stopped short of calling 'em all crooks, Tony did a great job summarizing the SOA's flaws.
I particularly like the part about bronze medal porty's being required to remove just 2% more soil than dry-vaccuming.
harryhides
Member
admiralclean said:
Marty there are very few people that I know that are more pompous than you.
You will be pleased to know that the article is quite short and has no PS's - YOU really don't need to read it - just scroll to the end and vote "NO".
Ken Snow
RIP
Great job Tony
Jim Pemberton
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Great job Tony.
John was an excellent opponent, which gave you the opportunity to dig deeper into the issue than anyone has been able to do previously.
John was an excellent opponent, which gave you the opportunity to dig deeper into the issue than anyone has been able to do previously.
hogjowl
Idiot™
Well crap ... now I'm gonna HAVE to go and listen to all of it!
And Darlene ... you don't like Pee Bee Gone?
And Darlene ... you don't like Pee Bee Gone?
Mikey P
Administrator
How invested is Downy in this deal?
What does he stand to gain if it were heavily implemented?
And what would he loose if it were not?
What does he stand to gain if it were heavily implemented?
And what would he loose if it were not?
harryhides
Member
As publisher of Cleanfax for so many years John got to know many leaders and shakers in the Industry - people like Carey Mitchell at Shaw and since his family manufactures the Steamin Demon he also had to be involved with the testing and approval of their machine (by Shaw) long before SOA came along.
John also loves a debate and the idea of airing out issues. He's a good man albeit just a bit confused on this item.
Hopefully he will come here and speak for himself.
The votes are now running 93% - 7%. That alone will send a loud and clear message to anyone that wants to hear.
John also loves a debate and the idea of airing out issues. He's a good man albeit just a bit confused on this item.
Hopefully he will come here and speak for himself.
The votes are now running 93% - 7%. That alone will send a loud and clear message to anyone that wants to hear.
diamond brian
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Didn't John do this on the Hot Seat a couple of months ago?
ron markam
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Finally read the debate(like Marty hate reading long stuff).Tony I think you did a wonderful job of exposing a flawed system.I was wondering if John was the same guy who made the demon.Anyway as they say on the street"it is what it is and it's gonna be what it's gonna be".
John Downey
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Jeff Cross told me that the privilege of of opposing Tony in the debate must be paid for by defending myself on this and the Cleanfax board once the article is published.
First off, I have nothing to gain or lose personally by what happens to the SOA. My brother Mike runs the Steamin Demon Company and invented the Steamin Demon and high-flow extraction. I was involved with Steamin Demon from 2000 through 2004. I ended my involvement for family reasons: my wife has some health issues and needed more help on the home front than I could provide when I was traveling all the time.
As I wrote in the article, I understand the shortcomings of the SOA (likely better than most of you do). But in the somewhat paranoid and self-righteous rush to dis the CRI (and consequently the manufacturers that support it), the majority risk cutting off their proverbial nose to spite their face. I participated in the debate not because I enjoy being a contrarian (OK, maybe just a little), but because I think that would be a disastrous mistake.
Engage. Try to understand it from the CRI's/mill's perspective. Then work with them to make it better.
John D.
First off, I have nothing to gain or lose personally by what happens to the SOA. My brother Mike runs the Steamin Demon Company and invented the Steamin Demon and high-flow extraction. I was involved with Steamin Demon from 2000 through 2004. I ended my involvement for family reasons: my wife has some health issues and needed more help on the home front than I could provide when I was traveling all the time.
As I wrote in the article, I understand the shortcomings of the SOA (likely better than most of you do). But in the somewhat paranoid and self-righteous rush to dis the CRI (and consequently the manufacturers that support it), the majority risk cutting off their proverbial nose to spite their face. I participated in the debate not because I enjoy being a contrarian (OK, maybe just a little), but because I think that would be a disastrous mistake.
Engage. Try to understand it from the CRI's/mill's perspective. Then work with them to make it better.
John D.
billyeadon
Supportive Member
noone's going to believe this.
not because I enjoy being a contrarian (OK, maybe just a little),
Not a contrarian. Oh please who are you fooling. That is your goal in life. That and beating me in racquetball.
Your pal.
not because I enjoy being a contrarian (OK, maybe just a little),
Not a contrarian. Oh please who are you fooling. That is your goal in life. That and beating me in racquetball.
Your pal.
harryhides
Member
This is all Yeadon's fault anyway - he's the machiavellian that set this whole Debate thing up but he is right about John being a contrarian - come to think of it I'm a contrarian too - it's just that I'm right and John, of course is wrong.
Though I do agree that if the Mills show ANY signs of working with cleaners ( something they've rarely done) instead of portable equipment manufacturers and franchisors - well some of them then there might be a chance of working with them. If anyone from the Mills or anywhere else can explain (from their point of view) how this nonsense makes any sense for them or us or the consumer, I'd love to hear it.
Though I do agree that if the Mills show ANY signs of working with cleaners ( something they've rarely done) instead of portable equipment manufacturers and franchisors - well some of them then there might be a chance of working with them. If anyone from the Mills or anywhere else can explain (from their point of view) how this nonsense makes any sense for them or us or the consumer, I'd love to hear it.
John Downey
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Bill Yeadon wrote: Not a contrarian. Oh please who are you fooling. That is your goal in life. That and beating me in racquetball.
LOL!
Damn! I can't get away with anything with you old-timers.
Let's make it hoops next time: Mano (me) a chica (you).
LOL!
Damn! I can't get away with anything with you old-timers.
Let's make it hoops next time: Mano (me) a chica (you).
John Downey
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Tony Wheelright wrote: If anyone from the Mills or anywhere else can explain (from their point of view) how this nonsense makes any sense for them of us or the consumer, I'd love to hear it.
Actually, they have. As you know Werner Braun wrote an ICS article and sat for a hot seat interview on this board. He has also spoken at numerous industry events, including Connections. And I understand that Carey Mitchell and Cindy Sayre with Shaw have explained and defended the SOA in numerous venues as well. But closed minds are not able to understand the other guy's perspective. And your very words betray how closed your mind is: "explain ... how this nonsense makes any sense at all."
Now there's an attitude that begs for dialogue.
John D.
Actually, they have. As you know Werner Braun wrote an ICS article and sat for a hot seat interview on this board. He has also spoken at numerous industry events, including Connections. And I understand that Carey Mitchell and Cindy Sayre with Shaw have explained and defended the SOA in numerous venues as well. But closed minds are not able to understand the other guy's perspective. And your very words betray how closed your mind is: "explain ... how this nonsense makes any sense at all."
Now there's an attitude that begs for dialogue.
John D.
Jim Pemberton
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Paranoid and self righteous, John?
I think those are unfortunate terms when you consider the measured and reasoned questions asked by many informed industry representatives.
The consensus of most equipment and chemical manufacturers, including those who have paid for testing, is that the program is flawed and has created more ill will and confusion than it has rendered benefits in our industry.
I hope that the change in the truck mount requirement and some of the more recent efforts by CRI representatives to open communication are indicative of their future intentions.
I think those are unfortunate terms when you consider the measured and reasoned questions asked by many informed industry representatives.
The consensus of most equipment and chemical manufacturers, including those who have paid for testing, is that the program is flawed and has created more ill will and confusion than it has rendered benefits in our industry.
I hope that the change in the truck mount requirement and some of the more recent efforts by CRI representatives to open communication are indicative of their future intentions.
Desk Jockey
Member
I respect John, especially when he chooses to defends a knowingly defective program, but Tony kicked his tail.
It simply makes no sense to support something that is broken to begin with.
I'm all for giving the consumer better cleaning options. It's vital for us all that carpet be maintained properly, but lets fix the program before it's implemented.
The day that the SOA program recognizes the distinct difference in cleaning between the Rug Doctor (a do-it-yourself method) and professional TM is the day I would listen to what they have to say.
Until that time, the SOA program is little more than a JOKE!
I like jokes, but this one is not very funny!:x
What was it 11-passes for a Rug Doctor vs 2-for a TM?
Anyone really believe some Janitor is going to go over an area 11-times? :roll:
Special testing dirt, that doesn't account for oily soils? Get a clue, we clean oily soils!:roll:
Sorry I'm not as eloquent as my good friend Tony, but I am just as passionate about doing what is right.
In it's present state the SOA just isn't it! :x
John if you see Jeff Cross he owes you big for setting you up on this one!
It simply makes no sense to support something that is broken to begin with.
I'm all for giving the consumer better cleaning options. It's vital for us all that carpet be maintained properly, but lets fix the program before it's implemented.
The day that the SOA program recognizes the distinct difference in cleaning between the Rug Doctor (a do-it-yourself method) and professional TM is the day I would listen to what they have to say.
Until that time, the SOA program is little more than a JOKE!
I like jokes, but this one is not very funny!:x
What was it 11-passes for a Rug Doctor vs 2-for a TM?
Anyone really believe some Janitor is going to go over an area 11-times? :roll:
Special testing dirt, that doesn't account for oily soils? Get a clue, we clean oily soils!:roll:
Sorry I'm not as eloquent as my good friend Tony, but I am just as passionate about doing what is right.
In it's present state the SOA just isn't it! :x
John if you see Jeff Cross he owes you big for setting you up on this one!
Fon Johnson
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There are four groups I can see benefiting from the program: The mills, the people receiving the monies for testing and approval, the consumer and the oppourtunistic cleaner. The consumer wins if they stay on top of cleaning within warranty guidelines as they will have cleaner carpet and a valid warranty. The problem with that is that most people cannot even tell you what mill the carpet is from, muchless the warranty info. The mill has a win-win situation. If the carpet is cleaned to warranty, they should have less issues. If the carpet is not, then they have an escape clause.. case closed. Since MOST people don't know about a warranty or properly maintain their carpet, well.. Some smart cleaners will take the SOA ball and run with it. The more intelligent ones will find a way to get mileage out of it..
I suppose a fifth group could be the equipment and chemical manufacturers. I think the whole SOA issue will have to be taken more seriously before that seriously affects their bottom line though.
I suppose a fifth group could be the equipment and chemical manufacturers. I think the whole SOA issue will have to be taken more seriously before that seriously affects their bottom line though.
John Downey
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timnelson said:
Frankly, no, I don't. It is a factor, but in the residential market I think style would be number one. Number two would be the perception that carpet contributes to health problems, such as asthma. Cleaning probably runs third, although it is related to number two. I'd place performance fourth, although it is related to style as well.
In the commercial market, though, the perception that carpet either can't be maintained or is too expensive to maintain is definitely number 1.
John D.
Ken Snow
RIP
Wait a minute Bill and John~ you guys play racquetball? That and singing are my 2 favorite pastimes, we've got to play sometime.
Ken
Ken
Desk Jockey
Member
OMG on Karaoke again! :shock:
I agree completely, John. Now, given that CRI has stated that the goal of this program is to address the number one consumer problem with carpet, where does that leave us?
Will this program make a significant impact on carpet's declining market share?
Will this program make a significant impact on carpet's declining market share?
harryhides
Member
Tim, that's why John plays a game with such a large raquet - he can't focus!
Residential/commercial what's the difference - all this balony and for what?
And as is inevitable when a homeowner that has a staple yarn Poly complains about her 4 year old carpet after having had it cleaned by SOA approved contractors every 18 months THEN WHAT ?? Guess who will get blamed ?
The Mill?
The SOA contractor?
The CRI ?
And this will help the professional cleaner, right ?
Tell me John, please......who do YOU think will be blamed?
Squash is a real man's game but it does require concentration.
Residential/commercial what's the difference - all this balony and for what?
And as is inevitable when a homeowner that has a staple yarn Poly complains about her 4 year old carpet after having had it cleaned by SOA approved contractors every 18 months THEN WHAT ?? Guess who will get blamed ?
The Mill?
The SOA contractor?
The CRI ?
And this will help the professional cleaner, right ?
Tell me John, please......who do YOU think will be blamed?
Squash is a real man's game but it does require concentration.
John Downey
Member
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Tony,
I can't speak universally to your question, but my customer will likely blame either the carpet salesman who sold her a carpet that was inadequate for her needs, or she will blame herself for buying cheap when a better but more expensive style was recommended.
I know this: she won't blame me because I'm the guy who was straight with her right from the start.
Why do I think this? Because for the past three years I've been cleaning this olefin berber crap and I've yet to be blamed for poor performance.
John D.
P.S. It looks like I'm gonna need to have my WHOLE family vote!
I can't speak universally to your question, but my customer will likely blame either the carpet salesman who sold her a carpet that was inadequate for her needs, or she will blame herself for buying cheap when a better but more expensive style was recommended.
I know this: she won't blame me because I'm the guy who was straight with her right from the start.
Why do I think this? Because for the past three years I've been cleaning this olefin berber crap and I've yet to be blamed for poor performance.
John D.
P.S. It looks like I'm gonna need to have my WHOLE family vote!
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